My brain is funny sometimes. I think quite a bit in my sleep and sometimes a thought will actually wake me up. That happened in the wee hours of the morning and here's the thought I had:
if a ship, like the titanic, sinks to the bottom of the sea and human lives are lost, does the area of sea that the ship rests on become haunted? If so, would would the divers who swam around the remains of the of the ship see ghosts or notice anything ghostly?

See? I told you my brain is funny

Miss Grrl, my brain does that too!! I have some of the weirdest thoughts when I'm asleep and wake up with strange questions.

There are alot of stories about ghost ships. My question there is how does something that has no spirit appear? Does the ghost of someone attatched to it create it? Do they also create the other apparitions on the ship or are those people really there as well? As far as the bottom of the Ocean goes, I would say that ghosts of people would not haunt it. To my way of thinking (often wrong) they would go to the place or people that were important to them in life. I would think that ghosts, like the people they were, would seek out their natural enviroment, which the bottom of an ocean or lake is not. I'm not sure even I can understand what I'm saying but I figure you could probably find Jaques Cousteau down there but ordinary folks I doubt it, even in the event of a traumatic death. Just my take on it.

Renee

[ August 22, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Renee ]

Ouch my brain hurts!

There's a movie coming out soon about a Ghost Ship I think. I would think you could see a "ghost ship" on the water surface and perhaps even under the water. But wouldn't have a clue how to prove it.

I was thinking about this myself, watching the news footage of a ship being raised. I agree with Renee, I think it would be more likely that the souls of people who die in this manner would probably haunt places they were more familiar with and close to.
I saw something on the History Channel just recently about a ghost ship. The couple they interviewed seemed very convincing.
I'll be looking for that movie!

That's interesting Renee and it makes perfect sense. I mean in life, we human live on land and instinctually stay away from things that mean our demise, water being one of them. So then, would the spirit of someone from the Titanic then attach itself to, say an artifact found on the ship? And if Pandora is right and you can see ghosts under the water, how would you document it?Can you still use photography? I mean EVP would be out.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who has weird thoughts like that.:olo:

Tough, tough, tough.

It would be interesting to know if some of the regular divers (that also film the dive) have ever caught something strange on film. I've never heard any of them talk about it!

My thoughts are that ghosts would more than likely haunt the places they were familiar with in life - somewhere on land. Heck, who knows, maybe they need sufficient air like we do in order to manifest, therefore can't be underwater for very long? I think if an object/artifact was something dear to them, yes, they could be attached to it.... but maybe it has to be brought to the surface before they can "attach" to it. It's so hard to say!

Tough question, Miss Grrl!

Kell

When I was in the army and stationed in Hawaii, I once visited the Arizona Memorial. It was after hours for the tour but thanks to a couple of navy guys who were going out to make sure things were clean and such, I got to go along. When I stood directly above that ship, I heard all sorts of voices crying for help and felt such a sense of fear that I started shaking. One of the young men noticed and came over to me saying "You hear them too". Well, after that experience, I could never stand to go back onto the memorial. Sometimes I would go down and ride the ferry over to Ford Island (had to be military to do that) which would pass by the memorial but didn't actually go to it. Sometimes, in the early morning hours, I thought I saw some guys on the memorial even thou it was not open durring those hours and the uniforms seemed different than what the navy now wore. I never mentioned it to anyone back then cause I figured I would have ended up on the psych ward for observation. But I think that in some traumatic instances, their spirits are trapped where they last were. They may have not been able to leave their shipmates since bonds in the military can be very strong especially in times of war. Just my thoughts.
Glad to hear I am not the only one who wakes with questions from a dream.

Drummaker1

[ August 22, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: drummaker1 ]

Fascinating story Drummaker! In the back of my mind, I think I remember something on the History or Travel Channel that made mention of phenomenon occuring in that area. Certainly stands to reason! I wonder if these occurances are more common to military personnel who visit the memorial, or if civilians have experienced things there too?

Good question Mss Grrl.
And don't worry, my lump of grey matter does the same thing sometimes.

Isn't there a thing about ghosts and water? Not being able to go over streams and bodies of water because of the energy in it??
I've never heard of a diver seeing strange phenomena in sunkin ships. But I have heard of ghosts who haunt wrecks or salvaged boats that are on land.
And that is a good story Drummaker. Maybe because the ship is so close to the surface and on shallow water. And if there is ever a most traumatic way to die in a ship it was the way that ship went down. I'm not sure I would like to visit there. Kind of like going to a concentration camp in Germany.

The two different events, the Titanic and Pearl Harbor, could be construed as two different types of deaths. Although both, I'm sure, were very emotional.

With the Titanic, those left on board (with the exception of the children) knew that they were about to die and although the time was short, they did have time to prepare themselves. The prayers that were said from both those left behind and those on the life boats could have prevented a haunting.

With Pearl Harbor, those that died, died violently, fighting to there last breath. These people also fit into the "Cousteau" catagory - they are where they belong, on their ship, still continuing the fight.

I think the Ghost Ships are more in the line of residual hauntings, where those on board continue their duties time after time - conditions have to be just right to see these.

Another thing that I think might keeps spirits from being trapped under the ocean is the sea salt.

I have often wondered about the ghostly remains of people on the Titanic... are there any 'underwater ghosts'?? I have always found it rather strange that there haven't been any reports that I have heard about any ghostly activity around some of the items that were brought back to the surface. I think that I would be most uncomfortable around the items that they are displaying, etc.

Miss Grrl, your brain's not 'funny'... I think you will find lots of company here!! LOL Count me in as one with a 'funny' brain!!!

Drummaker, that was an interesting story about the USS Arizona. I'll bet your experience was one of those that kind of shakes you up a bit afterward, and you probably never will forget how it made you feel... just standing there above that wreck. The USS Arizona has a special display at our fairgrounds here in Phoenix. Since I was a child.... just going in there and seeing the bell, and the silver tea service from the officers mess, and some other small things, I have always felt incomfortable there. I can only imagine what being at the memorial would be like. Did the sounds seem to just be 'all around you', or did they seem to be coming from the ship itself?? Just curious.

The ghost ships that I wonder most about are those that seem to disappear, and reappear, as if through a rip in time... like in the various Triangles around the world. There are several "Bermuda Triangle" type anomalies around the world.... and strangest of all, imagine this one: If you have a large globe of the world, with the triangles plotted on it, and if you pass a knitting needle through the triangle, and through the very center of the globe, the needle will exit at a location where there are pyramids built by various civilizations. Are the pyramids creating all or part of the 'force' that makes the ships, airplanes, and people disappear and sometimes reappear in what looks like a shimmery mirage? Where do they go?? Another plane of existance, perhaps?

Connie, I have only heard of sea salt used to keep evil spirits away. Would it effect ALL spirits? I don't know if the sea salt would be a barrier to these departed souls from a shipwreck, or not. Interesting thought....

Mare

[ August 24, 2002, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: azspirit ]

drummaker - I love the USS Arizona story. It sounds like a residual haunting. Could you also hear them banging on the hull of the ship? Poor dears. I'd like to include your story on the SpiritKeep website, if that's ok with you. Let me know!

Connie - I like your theories about the difference between the USS Arizona and the Titanic. Definitely different circumstances when death took place. I also agree about ghost ships being a residual haunting.

Your thoughts on sea salt may very well be correct, too. I surmise that sea salt would affect negative as well as good spirits - if indeed sea salt affects them like we think it does.

Kell

Sorry that I didn't get back to this sooner but I couldn't find it. Dang brain cells aren't what they used to be.
What I heard that day was muffled voices like you would hear through a door. I couldn't tell where they were coming from since there was so many at once. And yes, it sounded also like some were pounding on the metal of the hull with a fist or something. And I felt like I was trapped in a space and couldn't get out. And yet I felt frozen in that spot and couldn't move till the navy guy came over and touched my arm. This was the first time I ever felt something like that and it scared the heck out of me. Now I have seen ghost and such and never thought it was scarey but this was very different.
I felt the same sort of thing a few years ago when I was in what used to be an old slaughter house. It was being used as a factory now and my roommate worked there. She was showing me around and when we came to one room, I felt such fear coming from the room and felt like a cow had just brushed past me. Even smelt the dang thing. But the next room was worse. Such fear that I had to get out of there as my breathing had become very rapid and I wanted to run in a circle around the room. I found out later from the owner of the building that the first room was were the cows were held prior to slaughter and the other room was for the young calfs. The other rooms that I never went into was were they actually slaughter the animals I guess I wasn't the only one to have an experience there but others hadn't had "impressions" of animals walking past them. The owner asked us if we knew of anyone who could cleanse the building. An elder that we knew was glad to help and asked me to assist with it. As we were doing the last room, which was were all the animals came into when they first arrived, I felt many cows and calves walking past me and out the sliding doors. After that cleansing, I could go into any room there without that fear coming upon me.
Now I don't claim to know very much about this sort of thing but I do know what I felt and heard. At times I can also pick up on friends and people who are having a problem. It's an overwhelming urge to call or talk to them. I do not know why I can do this at times but I am beginning to see it as a gift. I always said my brain was wired different.

drummaker1

Well, strangley I feel a bit comforted by the fact that I am not the only one who's brain "never sleeps"..it's maddening!
Drummaker, that IS a very strange but wonderful story. For me, it acts as confirmation that ghosts are very real, very here and now. The very fact that you heard them also sort of voids the theroy that salt water prevents them from remaining in their watery graves, I guess.
I find it also very interesting that you were able to "tune in" without thinking about it, to the vibes that the cows had left behind.

I feel that picking up on residual vibrations and emotional states of animals is actually easier to do that picking up the human vibes at times... mostly because the humans have been taught most of their lives to hide their real emotions about things, and I think sometimes those fears buried so deeply in the human psyche just don't always come through as plainly as the emotions and anxieties of our animal brothers. Just my thoughts...

Mare

That makes perfect sense, Mare. Humans are indeed taught to squelch much of their feelings because it could be seen as sign of weakness or of some sort of mental challenge whereas animals are free to "express" their feelings without fear of reprisal.

It also raises the question: just why are we taught to hold our feelings inside? We already know how much harm to our physical body holding bad things can do, not to mention the harm on the physche (sp?) that it does. So why then can't we all just be comfortable with expressing certain things? How many times have any of us said "I know this sounds strange but..."? Almost like we're embarassed to have the feeling.... just curious.

That's good question Miss Grrl. Why do we do anything that is bad for us? Mostly I believe it is because we are taught by others many of these negative traits. It is supported in our sociality. If you hung around with no one except people who treat themselves and others in nothing other than healthy ways you would learn to deal with yourself and others the same way.

Your other story about the slaughter house Drummaker to me shows more support for my belief that animals have spirit too. They survive after death. How exactly I don't know.
Which is why I appreciate how (I'm told) that Native Americans say thank you to both God and the animal they killed when hunting in appreciation for the sacrifice it has given so that the hunter and those he supports can live from the food the killed becomes.
For the same reason I could not be a hunter myself. I tried but found I couldn't kill anything when I can get enough food with the money I have.
Thanks for that story.

I agree about animals having spirits, maybe not on the same level as humans, but I think they definitely are capable of thought and emotions. Anyone who has had a strong bond with a pet, I believe, could see this.
I know what you mean about hunting, Nakis. I wouldn't be much good at it either. In my neck of the woods, especially, it is more uncommon to find men (and women) who don't hunt. Interestingly, my father was supposed to have been an advid hunter in his teens. After coming back from WWII, he refused to even handle a gun, and said he did not want to kill another living creature as long as he lived. I don't believe he ever did since that time. My brother always had other male relatives take him on hunting trips. I'm just too tender hearted when it comes to that. It's ok for other folks, but I'll just have to pass. I prefer my meat in cellophane.

Eheheheheh, be vewy, vewy qwiet, I'm hunting wibeyes, eheheheheheh.