This topic has been split from Lom's introduction thread, started November 23, 2004 02:25 PM. So, some are strictly excerpts from posts on that thread, pertaining to this subject. --Kell =)
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WildLomcevak wrote:
Isn't it amazing that so many people have seen or felt or heard PN activity, and yet we still don't have definitive proof? It makes me wonder if perhaps we aren't supposed to know for sure. I was talking with Kell via email and this subject came up- would proof of an afterlife- i.e. sentient ghosts- constitute proof of the existence of God? If so, maybe we cannot ever know if spirits exist, as that would negate faith. Any thoughts, anyone? Keep in mind, I'm not debating whether God exists (I'm dumb, but not THAT dumb!) but only whether proof of sentient spirits would prove the existence of God- and whether that would be enough to completely negate faith- something the bible frowns on heavily.

[ November 30, 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: KellKell ]

Hiya Wild:

For me, I feel I have proof of the existence of our spirits after death. I've told the story on here, about my friend who passed in June of this year. If you wanna read about it, and hear the EVPs she left on my voice mail, it is at: EVPs[/URL]
She knew I was searching and we had many talks about life after death, since she knew for a long time that she was dying. She gave me a rare gift. So whether I get pics of apparitions or not, I know our spirits do go on and are able to communicate. I'm forever after that photo of an apparition though. =)

Wow...that is something. My best friend died suddenly, a few years ago, at the tender age of 35. He put his two boys on the bus, went inside to make breakfast for himself, and dropped dead of a heart attack. We had often discussed the afterlife, and decided to contact the other- whoever died first, I mean. (we never dreamed it would be this soon)
Nothing ever happend. I was- and am- very disappointed...but maybe he was so content that he "moved on" immediately...I don't know. I envy you, very much, this last contact.
But here we run into the PN investigator's dilemma...I, for one, want to prove PN existence- not just to myself, but period. I already know that entities exist- although there is some argument in my mind as to what they are. They could be memories, latent energies, "recordings", or actual sentient beings. They could also be beings besides passed-on folks- maybe they consider immitating the deceased "good fun". We may "know" in our hearts, but I want to "know" in my head- and I want to be able to describe this alternate realm, and define it's rules and boundaries. Quite a chore.
I appreciate you sharing that experience...it's quite disconcerting. Yet it doesn't fit into the "proof" category, at least not for anyone but you- I'm sure you have certain feelings when you hear this, and that you recognize your friend...but for the rest of us, it's yet another proof that SOMETHING exists...but not proof that really tells us WHAT exists.
Damn...I'm remarkably jealous that you received a communication from your friend. I don't begrudge you this, understand...but I truly wish Randy had been able to contact me.
*sigh*

Thank you for sharing!

Yes, that's what I was talking about, in a way- whether we are supposed to know, I mean. Even if there are no "rules" governing our ultimate knowledge- prior to death, anyway- are we even capable of understanding what lies...over there? I believe the answer is yes, but really it's only a form of wish-fulfillment...I have no data to back that belief up. As for rules...yes, I have to say I believe there must be rules governing the other plane. Why, you ask? Well..many hauntings involve passed loved ones attempting to contact their surviving family- and many do, in a limited way. Yet even those who seem incredibly distraught aren't usually able to make clear, coherent contact- yet if you take everything that spirits have been able to accomplish, like moving objects, leaving cryptic phone messages and writings, voices from "thin air", and apparitions...well, if that energy was more organized, it seems likely that the spirit could make a more definitive contact. I believe, based on my experiences and the experiences of others, that contact between the two worlds is somehow limited. It doesn't seem to be a simple matter of lack of energy, because some hauntings are very...energetic...yet no spirit- to my knowledge- has ever made detailed, coherent contact. Single words or short phrases, even in EVP's...that's about as close as it gets. Most meaningful contacts almost have the feel of riddles, to me...like the entity is cirumventing rules, perhaps? As always, this is just my opinion, but it IS an opinion based on many years of observation and thought. That certainly doesn't make it correct, but I have tried to use all available evidence as open-mindedly (Mindedly?) as possible. One thing that has baffled me is that it seems to take a great deal of effort/energy to fully apparate- yet there are numerous cases of entities apparating so successfully that the witnesses mistook them for living people. It seems that that would be very energy-intensive...yet those apparitions either did not speak, or spoke cryptically. Why don't the entities forego appearing altogether, and use that energy to speak in complete sentences? Argh...this can be such a frustrating area of interest, at times. I feel compelled to try to figure out what lies beyond, almost to the point of an obsession, yet years of trying and studying the experiences of others has left me dissatisfied.
Your sand story interests me- I had a similar experience. Back in...oh, 87 or so, I was living in an old house in West Texas. I lived alone, and the house was at least 5 miles from it's nearest neighbor. I had a girlfriend, but she didn't have a key, nor did anyone else- it was a family house, so no landlord possessed a key, either.
The home had all hardwood floors, even in the kitchen. One day I came home from work to discover a lone egg sitting, unbroken, in the center of the kitchen floor. It puzzled me, but I made some excuse in my head and put it in the fridge. Every day for the next 5 days, I found the same egg in the center of the floor! Finally, on Saturday, I decided to have eggs for breakfast- they were all spoiled, the entire dozen I had purchased the week before. My grandmother and grandfather had built the house around the turn of the century, and lived in it until they died...so I always wondered if my grandma was warning me about the spoiled eggs...

Thanks for listenin'!

Well I think we can put you down as self depricating. Dumb? I don't think so.

I think we will eventually find evidence of life after death. I think it will be relatively soon. But that opens Pandora's box for the realm of spirits. Once you figure our how to measure something, affecting it is not far behind. Just think of the crimes of humanity spreading over to the spirit world. AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I do not see any scientist being shown evidence of spirits, life after death, paranormal, .... will conclude that as evidence that God exists. It only proves that other beings exist beyond our current sphere of provable energies. God will still be as much as God is to you.

Very true...however, many religions either do not admit that ghosts exist, or associate them entirely with evil. If an afterlife is proven beyond a doubt, at the very least it will rock the worlds of many proscribed religions. If meaningful, repeatable contact is made between planes, it is assumed that many religions questions will be answered- like the existence of a supreme being. Then again, we come back to those rules- perhaps even with solid forms of communication, that question will be off limits. It certainly is an interesting topic to ponder...

By the way, I just read a book called How to Hunt Ghosts, by Joshua P Warren. I highly recommend this tome for anyone interested in the paranormal- not just ghost hunters. Warren is amazing, he writes very well- of course, it helps that many of his beliefs closely parallell my own!

Thanks For Listenin',

I just had to pass on another book...I enjoyed this one, although the...sub-plot, I guess you could say...bothered me a bit. However, it is a well-written and thoroughly enjoyable book, about the author- a skeptic- going on a journey of PN discovery. She not only writes well, but she gives suprisingly open accounts of her own feelings and thoughts. The book is called Ghost, by Katherine Ramsland.
I read every book I can find about the PN, and unfortunately many of them are...well, let's just say dissapointing. When I find a winner, I tend to pass it on to everyone I know who is interested in the PN. I'd welcome any feedback on any of the literature I recomend, if anyone chooses to read them.

Thanks For Listenin'!