I have never bought into this belief so much, because while I do realize that there is a law of cause and effect, there are also many chaos theories. I think that due to chaos, some things happen at random with no real reason behind it and that it is up to us to bring meaning to that thing or event. Care to discuss with me?

Ravenheart

I believe in cause and affect.
Things that seem chaotic only do so because we don't understand them. People believe that things could come into existance without cause. That was proven wrong.
As with any belief mankind has had we've come to learn that there is cause behind what we've taken as belief. A reason.
That's not to say to give up on belief. Not at all. It seems that we'll never truly understand everything so belief is essential for our minds to operate. It's just don't take belief to a level where it becomes dogmatic. Then you become rigid and fixed. We're all still learning.

I think Nakis, as usual, said this very well. I agree completely. I do believe everything happens for a reason, although we may not understand why at the time. Just in my own personal experience, when I've questioned the "why" of some things, later it would unfold and make sense as to the reason behind it.

I also think belief is essential to mankind. As Nakis said, we're never going to fully understand everything, so belief is essential. Even the belief not to believe.

You are all making some interesting points. I believe that a person has to remain flexible enough in their belief system to change them, if and when enough evidence is seen to cause the old belief to be flawed. Do things happen for a reason? I think to some extent, they do. Some things are random, and don't cause anything of note, but other things happen, and it really makes a thinking person wonder about the possible connection between cause and effect. Here's a personal example of recent times that I am still pondering. Crazy as it might seem to some, here it is as I see it.

My dog ate my upper denture. Yes, he chewed it up into little tooth sized pieces, and swallowed them. Well, aside from the laughter at the dentist's office about this, and our vet was incredulous that he had done that. The vet told us to feed him canned pumpkin, and that worked like a charm to bring all of the teeth through, so that we could do archaelogical stuff on the doggie doo for a few days until we found my teeth. I got new teeth after a couple of weeks. End of story, right?

No, not really. Having no upper teeth caused me to eat things that were comprised of starch, sugar, and cooked veggies, like potatoes, etc. Just a week or so after I got my new teeth, I had a bad diabetic seizure and went to the hospital for 3 days. I had no idea I was diabetic, and didn't know of any family members close to me who were diabetic. That diagnosis really blindsided me! Diabetic?? Me??
Yes! Why the seizure at this point in time? I had been eating everything in the world that was needed to shoot my blood glucose level sky high, and my brain said "Enough!!" This is because I had some sore spots with the new denture, and was still eating soft, carb-filled foods. I think I had been building up to that seizure, and didn't even realize it.

If the dog hadn't eaten my teeth, would I still be wandering around not knowing I was a diabetic? I am sure I would. The blood glucose tests the Dr. does for my quarterly exams were a fasting blood sugar test.... and of course, it wasn't high enough to be suspect. My triglycerides and cholesterol were a bit high, but he was telling me that diet plus medications he had me on should take care of that. So, I was a diabetic and wouldn't have known it, if my dog hadn't eat my teeth.

Do things happen for a reason? I think this is a case that says "yes". Crazy? Yep! But, it is the best thing that ever happened to me, because thus far, the diabetes has not done a lot of damage to my internal organs, and I am one lucky woman. I have quit smoking, lost 35 pounds, and am on diabetic diet, along with medications to help prevent further harm. This is the best outcome anyone could expect. My Doctor is overjoyed about this whole case, because we caught the diabetes early.

Things like this make you wonder about cause and effect.

Mare

I agree, for the most part, with what has been said here, I think that there may well be order underlying all of the chaos. However, I can't help but feel that, when I get the pat answer; "Everything happens for a reason", it is the same as "whistling in the dark" to make ourselves feel better about things that happen that, we cannot explain, control, or put a cause to. In other words; It sometimes seems to me to be the answer people give when, they don't really have an answer. From that viewpoint I would rather someone just say, "Ya know, I don't really know why."

Ravenheart

I agree, that everything happens for a reason. Though things may sometimes seem chaotic, and we see no real reason for it at the time...it still happened for a reason. Some things, I don't believe we will understand until we cross over into the light. Then I think, we will be bathed in all of the knowledge our spirits are supposed to have, and I think we will know the reasons for everything. Our stay here, in my opinion, is a learning experience, and we're not going to know the "whys," until we graduate from our earthly lessons. I have not figured out why I am still here, but there is a reason. I have survived a lot this past year and when I think about it, it amazes me that I am still here and coherent. For those who don't know... this is what the past year has been for me:

1. May 11, 2005 I had a Heart attack, quintuple bypass, three strokes during that surgery. I had to regain the use of my right arm and hand.
2. My leg got infected where they took the veins for my heart, a year later it still has not healed.
3. One of my bypass grafts blocked up, I had a stent put in.
4. My arteries occluded in both legs, I had the right ones opened and a stent put in my groin.
5. July 2006, Another bypass graft blocked up, causing a mild heart attack, and I had another stent put in.
6. I still have to go in and have a stent put in left side of groin and the arteries "roto-rootered" in that leg.

There has been a lot more to it, than just the physical aspects. It has effected my family, and has reallllly done a number on me emotionally. I've questioned a lot of things, believe me, and one of my main questions has been why did all of this happen to me? And Why am I still here? After all, there has to be a reason...right?

Somewhere inside, I am proud to be here, and that scar on my chest is a source of pride...it's my spirit's battle scar, and hey, for some reason, I survived. =)

I agree with you and am sorry to hear about your difficulties, and I too am glad you are still here. You deserve to be here after the battle you have had to fight (and continue to fight).
I too, continue on even though I do not know the reasons I am still here.
My main point in this thread, was to say that: "Everything happens for a reason", may be an inappropriate response to someone who is enduring the pain and confusion of life. To me, it is not very thoughtful of the others feelings and tends to try to rationalize suffering. I just do not think this is very helpful when a person is trying to express their feelings. Do you know what I mean?
To my mind, "I hate that you are hurting this way" seems to be a more appropriate response.
To say that "everything happens for a reason" to a person that is hurting from an injury or loss etc. is the equivalent of saying, "life is messy, deal with it."

mcuh love,
Ravenheart

Hi Ravenheart,

I understand what you are saying. "Everything happens for a reason," is almost cliche', people say it so much. I think one reason is in bad situations, people get uncomfy and don't know what to say or how to comfort the other person. For me, having the thought that there is a reason for things we don't understand is somewhat comforting and others may feel that way too. But, I do see what you are saying. The important thing is to know that they are trying to be of comfort, and it's not so much the words, as it is their actions and knowing that they truly care.

Hugs,
Pate

I'm sure there's a reason for you questioning if there is a reason for everything reasoning. =) =)

Just kidding.

It bothers me too when people say that as sort of pat explanation of why things happen. Some people offer it because they have nothing better to offer.

I'm working with a reason why something happened to me. Cause and affect. I created no cause that I know of. I keep hearing in my mind that there is a reason for it. If only suffering creates compassion. Compassion connects you with the suffering of others.

I believe I know what you mean. Often just being there means more than anything you can say. Often the things people say (esp. when they don't have anything else to offer) sounds trite even if well intentioned. Some people can't relate either because they don't have an idea of how you feel or it hurts too much for them to go to that place and be able to offer you something that's more valid to you.

I think Pate knows very well.
Not invalidating anyone else but considering what Pates been through, I think Pate knows very well.

I still believe in cause and effect. It's not the sole actor but it is a greatly perveyant law in our universe. Genetics is another. And the freedom of choice is another (which I believe is Divinely given).

SavannahSilkie and Nakis,

You are both right and I thank you for your reply. Sometimes men, will not say anything to comfort another man; it is as if they are joining in the confusion about the suffering, right along with the person who is hurting. I wonder if women understand this about men?

much love,
Ravenheart

Yes, I know that often men are not apt to voice how they really might feel about another's hurt or troubles. It goes along with the old outdated belief that real men don't cry. I have found that is simply not true. A man is a man BECAUSE he can cry. I find that some of the bravest and most courageous men are those who DO cry when they encounter something that makes them very sad, whether it is their own trouble, or that of another.

I think this is similar to the fact that men don't often offer more than a word or two to another man who is in physical or emotional pain. I believe it stems from a secret, deeply held fear that it will cause them to "show emotions" that they equate to weakness, or being less than a man. It shouldn't be this way, but the male brain often processes things this way.

My husband cries when he is extremely touched by something that goes deep into his soul. It can be someone elses trouble or illness, or it can be an especially touching song. The one that touches me deeply is when his eyes well with tears when he hears the Marty Robbin's song "My Woman, My Wife". He will always come to me and touch me on the shoulder, or my hand, and then my tears begin welling up, too. I am deeply touched that this man has loved me so much for all of our 42 years of marriage. I love him for being able to comfort anyone, male or female, and my son has those qualities, too. We were blessed with two men in our family who have empathy for others. Neither of them would tell anyone that "Oh, well, things just happen" or "Win some, lose some" nor any of the other cliche comforts that some people give to others.

Spread the love and caring far and wide, and know that the bravest men among us are those who aren't afraid to cry.

Hugs and blessings,

Mare

So Mote It Be!!!

Again, Mare, I have to say, you are a very fortunate person. From what you told me about Bill he's a heck of a man. And of course you have Kelly. I bet your son is just as good a person and all three of you are.

Yeah, Ravenheart, there are lots of reasons why men don't share.
For one we are raised that way. Even if the immediate family fosters a healthy attitude, boys still have to face their peers. So I have to say that both men and women share this folly in our society.
Another reason is fear. Most men, myself included, have a fear of their feelings. For their power. What we may do with them. So many men are just unaware of how to deal with complex deep emotions. I'm not saying any men on this website are like this or not. Just a general statement.
Another reason is the fear of being viewed as effeminate or gay. The fear of gay people is deeply ingrained into our society. The fear of being different. Whether it's being able to express your full range of emotions or mental health problems, how one dresses, hair styles, etc.... .
Men also fear being seen as weak. If you cry you're not a real man. If you hurt you're not a real man. If you need help, you're not a real man.
And one of the biggest fears.... is if you try to deal with it you'll be exposing it in yourself. Denial. The rage, anger, violence that comes with denial of the self. As evidenced by the biggest homophobes actually being gay themselves.

All these issues and more. It takes a brave man to stand against convention and society and be a real man. Tough when you need to be. Caring when you need to be. Cry when you need to cry. It's tough.

(sniff, sniff) It's not easy being a white male in our society..... what?? what?? ...... (yes that is a joke).

You know.....because of trauma in my history and the resulting therapy, (mind-bending and soul-searching)I have been fortunate enough to get over all of the "crap" you mentioned that men use as excuses (myself included), not to face thier fears and work through them. (no hidden implications here, so please do not take that the wrong way).
I have no homophobia or fear of appearing feminine. I am also not afraid of my feelings or what I might do with them...without feelings I am half-dead, (at least this is how I see it).
Fortunately for me, I had a very fine therapist, for many years, who helped me to work through all of my main issues, such as the ones mentioned. The issues I still have, have been reduced, I am aware of, and continue to work on.
When I look back at how much damage these male stereotypes caused me in my life, it is all I can do to keep from crying...still, I choose cry and then, to refocus on the here and now, and the positive aspects of moving through these things.
I am glad that you are aware of these things yourself and from the sound of it, you have great insight into the problems. If you or any other male for that matter, have questions about male stereotypes, sexuality, abuse etc, please have them talk to me, I would love to be able to take the things I have learned and pass that information on to others. (There are also specific websites especially for male survivors, that are reasonable safe to visit).
I think, True brotherhood should be a birthright for all.

Peace out,
Ravenheart

I'm glad your doing so well with the traumas.

And thanks for the offer to share what you've learned. =)

Interesting topic. Very interesting.

I've been giving this some thought for a while now (quick, run while you can. *grin*) and I am still sifting my way through my thoughts on it so this may well not be a complete answer.

Ravenheart... You said that there is also the law of cause and effect...and the chaos therory. That's true. Maybe all those random things are there and happening so that whatever we choose to do, there's a setup already there for the outcome.

I don't know that everything happens for a reason. How much micro-management of the universe would be involved in that? *laughing* Okay, that made sense to me even if it doesn't to everyone else. I mean, how much does it affect the world ...or even my life in general if I got up at 9 this morning and then don't get up until 9:15 tomorrow? What was the big underlying reason behind that? That type of thing.

On the other hand, a great many things do happen for reasons that aren't apparent at the time but they sure come clear later. For example, quite a few years ago, I went looking for a chatroom to see if chatting was for me... A yearish after I started chatting there, someone signed in and a few minutes later, I sent him a PM (which I simply DID NOT do) warning him about someone in the room. He didn't have to believe me....he could do what he wished with the information. Turned out to be one of the smartest things I ever did but I didn't know that at the time.

I wonder if some of the things that we think happen for no reason actually do have a reason but we cannot see enough ahead to know that reason. Maybe it'll affect something a hundred years from now.. or maybe even further into the future.

Maybe those things that really don't happen for a reason are there as time fillers. How boring would your day be if it consisted of only three things and those things were all for a reason but only lasted for a total of 27 minutes. The rest of the day, you sit and breathe and that's it. *quiet laugh* Yes, my mind does wander around at times.

I very much agree with everyone here when they say that telling someone who's going through a rough time that "everything happens for a reason" can be very cold... even if it is the only thing a person can think of to say. There's a time and a place that it helps and others that it doesn't. That said, I have often been helping someone and thought, "I wonder what the reason behind them going through this is.. I wonder what purpose it's serving".

*laughing* I haven't even answered all of the posts in this thread... think I'll leave that for another time.